It is in response to this post by a friend of my friend Jenny:
Jenny, your friend’s response was so jam packed full of errors, misrepresentations and contradictions that I am going to respond to her (poorly constructed) sentence by (poorly constructed) sentence. He response is here verbatim, along with my comments.
She says:
paul was asking the people on 'earth' to interced for each other
David Obeid Responds
This is a stunning admission. It grants that it is ok to ask someone else to pray for you, and that you are not commanded to pray directly to God and to God alone, since you can ask others to pray for you. I will come back to this concession as we continue.
End of response
One can not find a direct scripture saying address your prayers to the saints...
David Obeid Responds
The last sentence conceded that we can direct our prayers to people on earth. I guess this objection is saying that we do not find Scriptures saying we can communicate with the Saints in heaven, but is this the case? There are examples throughout Scripture of people on earth speaking to Angels, and Scripture is clear that angels “stand in the presence of God” (St Luke 1:19). So we can ask others to intercede for us and there are numerous examples of people communicating with angels who are in heaven. This means that we don’t need a command in Scripture saying we ought to pray to the saints, but instead that those who say we ought not need to find a passage that says we shouldn’t! Let’s read on and see if such a passage is offered.
End of response
...rather we are specifically told shown and told that our prayers must be addressed to God mtt 6:9...
David Obeid Responds
If your friend wishes to say that St. Matthew 6:9 is limiting who it is our prayers are to be addressed to then does she condemn the very last words of the Book of Revelation as heretical? St. Matthew 6:9, if it is doing what she says, is saying that prayers are only to be offered to God the Father (Jesus Christ is not the Father), and the Book of Revelation ends with a prayer to Jesus “Come, Lord Jesus!” So either St. Matthew 6:9 is not doing what she says it is doing, or she thinks that St. John the Apostle was also a deceived Catholic who doesn’t understand Scripture as well as she does. Who is wrong? Her, or St. John? They can’t both be right, since they don’t both understand St. Matthew 6:9 in the same way (her way contradicts his).
Her other problem is that she has already admitted that we can ask others to pray for us, and I have shown that the Bible is replete with examples of people speaking to angels who are in heaven. Either all of these passages also contradict her understanding of St. Matthew 6:9 and they are wrong too, or she is misunderstanding (or worse) this passage. Once again, which is it? Is the rest of Scripture wrong and her right or is she wrong?
End of response
...as our God will not give His glory to another isaiah 48:11...
David Obeid Responds
In honouring the Saints we are not giving God’s glory to another. When we honour them we honour God for what He has done in and through them. The Blessed Virgin Mary herself shows how this is done. In St. Luke’s Gospel we read of the Holy Spirit inspiring St. Elizabeth to praise Mary, and then we see Mary in turn say that it is God who has done these great things to her.
I wonder, if your friend refuses to give God glory for what He has done, is she not guilty of a blasphemy, for failing to honour God for the great things He has done to and through the Saints?
Do passages that call human beings holy somehow take glory away from God, or do they recognise God’s greatness and give Him glory? She might be gushing with rage at reading the last sentence saying that no humans are holy because her pastor has given her a perverted understanding of the Letter to Romans, instead of appealing to her pastor’s perversion of Romans, can I suggest she read Ephesians 3:5 and tell me what the Apostles were? Or Revelation 14:10 and tell me what the Angels were? The examples could be multiplied.
For her understanding of Isaiah 48:11 to be correct she’d need all of these other passages to be wrong. So what is it, is she right and the rest of the Bible wrong? Or is the Bible right and her twisting of Isaiah 48:11 wrong?
End of response
...it is clear them that God will not accept prayers directed to anyone other than himself ...
David Obeid Responds
Given my responses above, what is clear is that prayers directed to others are just fine, and even commanded by St. Paul. A main reason that Evangelicals have a problem with praying to saints is not because the doctrine is unbiblical (as demonstrated from my responses above, the idea is perfectly in harmony with Biblical data), but because many Evangelicals have an impoverished understanding of what it means to worship God. Evangelical liturgy (don’t pretend, if you are angel or human you have a liturgy, whether it is good or not, whether it comes from God or from man, is a different question) limits the worship of God to prayer and praise only – there is no sacrifice, no offering of the completed work of Christ at Calvary to God the Father, or memorial of the Incarnation, life, death, resurrection and ascension into glory of God the Son in the Person of Jesus Christ in typical Evangelical worship. This is why they make the pulpit the focus of their services, instead of an altar.
Operating from such a poor notion of what it means to worship God, and from a point of view that sees prayer as the greatest act of devotion that can be offered, Evangelicals look at Catholicism and, failing to see the whole Christ lived, celebrated and adored therein, look at the cult of devotion we give to saints and confuse it for the adoration due to God alone.
The Catholic response to this shouldn’t be to water down the love and respect we have for God’s glorious grace working in and through the Saints, but to try to show them that the heresies of Sola Scriptura and Sola Fidei have left them standing far from the great treasure Christ bought for them with His own Blood on Calvary.
End of response
...with Christ as our only mediator between himself and up so that excludes Mary and all saints
David Obeid Responds
Christ is called “the one mediator” in the precise context of St. Paul’s command to make intercessions for others. If the Mother of God and the Saints are being excluded from anything by this singular office of Christ, it is not from offering intercessory prayer or having God’s glory shown in and through them honoured. If I am wrong here then so is St. Paul, and so is your friend, since she started off admitting the possibility of intercession in her opening sentence.
End of response
They cannot hear us ...
David Obeid Responds
Big call. Revelation 6:10 amongst other passages witnesses to the fact that those in heaven are aware of what happens on earth. So either your friend has the inside running on the Holy Spirit or Revelation is a heretical book and doesn’t belong in the Bible. Protestants have a history of throwing out books they feel contradict them, will she be calling the folk at Zondervan and commissioning her own version?
End of response
...and lets just say they could they are not authorised by God to act as a mediator
David Obeid Responds
We could just say that, except that the type of mediation that is singular to Christ that Scripture speaks about isn’t at the expense of glorifying God’s work in and through His Saints.
I wonder if your friend would have read this far and wonders what exactly is singular about Christ’s mediation that sets him apart in the immediate context of a command for intercessory prayer?
If she is, I encourage her to check out my post on this topic on my blog here: http://davidobeid.blogspot.com/2007/01/intercession-and-mediation-why-do-you.html
End of response
The righteous and sinless Jesus is the only ONE who is/was able to die for your sin and to take the position as Mediator 1 timothy 2:5-6
David Obeid Responds
St. Paul doesn’t seem to make the connection between being the redeemer and being able to make intercession (start reading from Verse 1 and you’ll see what I mean).
End of response
Abraham died abraham being dead is ignorant of world events
David Obeid Responds
Abraham also did not possess the Beatific Vision until after the glorification of Christ. As referenced above though, in the New Testament we see that those in heaven certainly do know about what is going on here on Earth.
End of response
isaiah 63:16 the dead know nothing
David Obeid Responds
I’d ask your friend if she’s read Isaiah 63:16 in its context, and then I’d point out that it no more is saying that intercession of Saints is impossible than it is saying that God is the author of our sins (Read verse 17). The point of this verse is to point out how far the sins of the people have removed them from Abraham and Israel (if anything, the passage is holding up (dare I say honouring?) these men as ideals for the people). Isaiah seems to look to previous heroes just like the Catholics do. Isn’t that interesting?
End of response
ecclesiastes 9:5,6,18
David Obeid Responds
Umm... has your friend actually read this book? The whole idea of the book is to present silly ideas that were around at the time and hold them up to mockery. Pointing to the ideas the book mocks as a proof of her position is kinda telling, don’t you think?
End of response
mercy and forgiveness belong to God 9:9
David Obeid Responds
I think your friend missed out on the name of the book this passage is from. It is from Daniel 9:9. Whilst mercy and forgiveness do belong to God they are both things that God has commanded us to give to others. This in no way whatsoever detracts from the Catholic doctrine of the Communion of Saints.
End of response
Only Christ ministers for you in heaven before the throne of God 1 timothy 2:5
David Obeid Responds
Only Christ ministers as Redeemer, but that is not the only intercessory role in heaven. Once again, check out the blog post I referred to above.
End of response
Only God can receive your prayers in Jesus' name and you can pray directly to God
David Obeid Responds
Are the four creatures (note that name!) and the twenty-four Elders who offer the prayers of others to God in Revelation 5:8 God themselves? Will your friend say that the CREATURES in this verse are really the CREATOR, just so her statement “Only God can receive your prayers in Jesus' name and you can pray directly to God” will stand? In other words, will she be guilty of doing what it is she thinks Catholics are guilty of and give to the creature that honour which is only due to God alone, or will she admit she is wrong?
End of response
jesus never at any stage told us to address our prayers to mary saints and angels
David Obeid Responds
He never told us not to either, but He did set up intercessors for His grace and authority with no qualms whatsoever. See St. Luke 10:16 and St. John 20:20-23 as clear evidence of this.
End of response
Your beliefs are based on man made doctrine
David Obeid Responds
On the contrary, Catholic doctrine is of divine origin and is protected free from error by divine promise. The same can’t be said of the man made doctrine of Sola Scriptura – if your friend really believes it can ask her pastor(s) to debate me on the issue under these reasonable conditions:
http://www.thecatholicforum.org/content.php?275-Standing-Debate-Invitation
If her pastors refuse to debate or make up lame excuses then she might want to ask them why they think the instruction to defend their position in 1Peter 3:15 doesn't apply to them.
End of response
To the law and to the testimony if they speak not according to this word it is because there is no light in them isaiah 8:20
David Obeid Responds
The “law and the testimony” is not in opposition to 1Thess 2:13 which says that the SPOKEN word of the Apostles was the Word of God nor is it in opposition to 2Thess 2:15 which says we are to hold to ALL of what the Apostles taught, whether it was written down or not. If 1Thess and 2Thess are part of what your friend calls “the law and the testimony” and she simultaneously denies Catholic Tradition then according to Isaiah “there is no light in her”. Of course, she could get herself off the hook if she just admits (yet again) that she’s wrong on this one too.
End of response
David Obeid
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